43 comments

  1. This was a great post. I feel like I’m good at saving money/investing, but not as good knowing how to access the accounts. I’m fortunate to have retired 2 years ago at age 54 and have a pension that I can easily live on. At age 60 I may start withdrawing from my 403b and brokerage account. I plan to not touch my Roth IRA or HSA and consider it my long-term care insurance. If not needed it can go to my nieces.

    About 10 years ago I had a financial advisor say I needed more bonds in my portfolio. That’s when I started doing more research and discovered what I needed was gap money (age 54-60). That stated a beautiful relationship with Vanguard.

    Sounds like you have a great plan. It’s exciting to follow along on your journey.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Congrats on your retirement two years ago! I can totally relate to what you’re saying. It took time for us to figure out the details about how to access different kinds of accounts and what that all meant for our own personal finance journey.

      And good plan with your Roth and HSA, we have a similar plan for our nieces and nephews. Though we’re starting to think our brokerage account funds might be a better option for them since that’s the account that will get a step up in cost basis allowing for tax free inheritance. We still have some planning to do on those topics.

      Also – hooray for you! You took some generic financial advice and figured out what you really needed to do for your personal finances. Bravo!

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  2. The bit about early social security withdrawals is a hidden gem in this post! I hadn’t even thought about that but it makes a lot of sense.

    I think most FIRE folks use taxable accounts but they don’t get much ink. One other area I push against on conventional FIRE wisdom is maxing out 401ks. Since most FIRE bloggers are software engineers at high income levels, maxing out makes sense since it’s still a small portion of savings (since the amount you can contribute is capped). But at lower incomes levels, it eliminates flexibility. A good example is this March – during the shutdown I was furloughed with reduced hours and pay. Had I been maxing out my 401k things would have been very tight. Because I had a lower contribution, I had the flexibility to invest a little less. One of the benefits of FIRE is having extra income potential for those rainy day events, and maxing out at my income level would have eliminated that ability.

    Good post!

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you. Gotta love those hidden gems! People typically think the idea of early Social Security is irrational. But in our case having a fear of leaving money on the table and planning to wait until age 70 would be irrational.

      We did a poll on Twitter about brokerage accounts and 80% of responders said they have one. But after more in depth conversations it sounds like most people in the FIRE community are more focused on maxing out 401k’s and IRA’s rather than really power saving to their brokerage accounts. There are certainly way more posts out there about the Roth conversion ladder than there are about using a brokerage account to fund early retirement.

      As for high and low income levels, we were not high income earners ourselves. We have learned so much about why that old mindset of being hyper focused on maxing out 401k’s was not just unrealistic for us, but it actually slowed us down. Not to mention just being a source of disappointment for us. Sounds like you had the right plan while you were furloughed. That must have been a challenge! But you figured out a good solution and put control over your situation and flexibility with your finances first. Good job!

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  3. Super helpful! So glad to hear you both say you’re going to begin SS withdrawals at 62. I’ve done my own calcs and had been planning the same thing but glad to have that corroborated by your plan. Great to hear your reasoning on taking from your IRA’s when you can begin instead of continuing to pull from brokerage. I will be 59.5 in June, and after reading this post I can see it makes more sense for me to switch to pulling from my IRA at that point instead of continuing to draw from my brokerage.

    I haven’t jumped in yet with Roth conversions (have some Roth investments) but know I need to get going on this. I think especially before 65 and medicare calculations affect me. Would love to hear if you two have factored medicare into your planning and, if so, what your thoughts are on that. Thanks for everything!

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks! So glad we can corroborate your plan for early Social Security and switching from your brokerage to your IRA at age 59.5. Alison only has to wait two more years until we can start withdrawing from her IRA and we have modeled how much that will change both our RMD’s and the health of our brokerage account over time. It’s pretty exciting.

      As for Roth conversions these are especially important for us since we have around 40% of our portfolio in IRA’s at this point. If only we had been maxing out our Roth accounts instead of our IRA’s while we were still working! We have been doing our medicare research and starting to run the calculations. Our initial thoughts are… wow medicare is expensive! If you’d like to chat more on the medicare topic please feel free to send us an email!

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  4. This is what I ended up concluding too, since I haven’t had a 401k in years. We’ll have a 401K, 2 rollover IRAs, a tiny Roth IRA, and our taxable brokerage account. In three years, I’ll have plowed as much in contributions in the brokerage as I have in my IRA because yay no contribution limits!

    I am still trying to figure out when it makes the most sense for us to do Roth conversions if any.

    Taking early SS as a supplement to your income in your situation make senses to me now. Once I would have thought it was foolish to leave any money on the table but with more perspective now I realize it’s good for two reasons: There’s no guarantee of how long we each have so holding out when you don’t truly need that increased later payment can be unnecessarily conservative, and taking it earlier preserves your brokerage accounts which is great! As we formulate our plans, I’m incorporating this new perspective.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Sounds like you guys are doing a great job of loading up your brokerage account! If you only have a “tiny” Roth perhaps you won’t need to do conversions.

      So glad you enjoyed the early Social Security topics in this post. There are definitely no guarantees with Social Security at this point. Many of the arguments I’ve heard around the FIRE community for waiting until age 70 to take full Social Security benefits sound a bit like fomo. Though of course waiting for full Social Security is the right thing to do for some people. From my perspective there are a million reasons why taking Social Security early at 62 makes perfect sense for us. Most importantly there’s the benefit of relieving the withdrawal pressure on our investments and allowing all of our accounts to continue growing!

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  5. Love the helpful graphics! Like the idea of earmarking Roth accounts as long term care. FI seems very far away, but hoping to learn the ropes along the way to have a solid plan when the time comes.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thank you! I had lots of fun building graphics for this post. And we are feeling really good about our long term care plan with our Roth accounts.

      The fact that you’re doing so much research and working so hard on figuring out your plan early in the process is fabulous. Having a solid plan early in your FI journey will definitely help you!!

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  6. Terrific post! I really appreciate how you explain your different thought processes, including the details on why you decided *against* other options. And being a visual person the graphics always help me see the big picture.

    I have only a small portion of my investments in retirement accounts, due to the types of jobs I’ve had over the years. 8% are in two IRAs (one is a traditional, the other was my 401k that I rolled over). Another 8% is in a Roth IRA, and the remaining 84%(!) is in my taxable brokerage account. I’m 47, and so the retirement accounts are currently 100% S&P index (Vanguard and Fidelity). And my taxable account is 80/20 indexed equities and bonds (all Vanguard).

    I’ve been spending time learning more about Roth conversions, and trying to decide if it’s a path I should pursue. I have a lot of researching to do and your post is extremely helpful. Thank you!

    Liked by 1 person

    • To put my percentages in perspective, I’m around 24x right now, no debt, own my house outright. I don’t include my house in my net worth, otherwise I’d be around 37-39x. I plan to live here for at least 10+ more years and have a teen, so “home base” is a quality of life issue that I value now.

      Getting close to my 30-33x goal!

      Liked by 1 person

      • Sounds like you have a solid plan in place! And the home base makes perfect sense, especially while you’re creating stability for your kid. Congrats on getting so close to your goal!

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    • Wow your portfolio allocations are exciting to hear about! 84% in your brokerage account! Woohoo!

      It would be interesting to hear more about your thoughts on Roth conversions. Our IRA’s are basically 40% of our portfolio so our estimated RMD’s are quite high. Perhaps your IRA balance is more reasonable at 8% and your RMD’s may not cause any tax or other issues for you? Especially if you start tapping that account in 12-ish years when you turn 59.5?

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      • I do think the Roth conversion for myself may be somewhat moot, like you said since my IRAs are relatively small, at perhaps 1.5-2x.

        The other tax strategy I am beginning to research is capitol gain harvesting, especially as I’m in Oregon where paying a bit of tax earlier to reset my cost basis, may pay off later after those funds have had more time to appreciate in my taxable account? It’s on my mind as I’ll be switching from Head of Household to Single in (perhaps) 7-8 years as my 10th grader grows up.

        Liked by 1 person

        • If you don’t need to “play with” Roth conversions it sounds like you might instead get to play with some tax gain harvesting instead. We have been talking about that option ourselves just because it’s interesting to understand how it works, but so far we haven’t needed to do any tax gain harvesting since we’re maxing out our 0%/12% tax brackets with Roth conversions and we haven’t realized any capital losses. YET.

          Sounds like you have about 7 years to do research and plan ahead while your kid is still growing up. Ideally you would be able to strategically harvest gains in some years to both limit tax liability and keep your portfolio balanced.

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  7. Thank you so much for this post! When I see early retirees talk about their 25x (or so) investments, I always wonder how much of that is in tax advantaged retirement accounts and how much is brokerage accounts/cash. That has always been the hard part for me to figure out, so I love how you walk through your planning.

    PS – I’m with Alison on the olive-hating.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I always wonder the same! People often talk about the size of their portfolio but rarely talk about the relative size of different types of accounts. I think it’s incredibly helpful to learn more about how various accounts are used/withdrawn from and how they all fit together like puzzle pieces. 🙂

      Liked by 1 person

  8. This is SUCH a great post, and I really appreciate the pictures! They help me really make sense of all the information you’re laying out here.

    I’ve been making changes to my retirement saving plan based on a lot of your thoughts – as soon as I replace my furnace (sigh) I’m going to start really adding money to my brokerage account. My retirement savings are healthy enough as it is, I need to focus on that bridge funding.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks Beth! So glad you enjoyed the post and the pictures. Sounds like your retirement savings plan is really coming together. That moment when you can really shift your saving focus to your brokerage account is pretty exciting!

      And hey we can relate with the furnace, we have to replace ours this summer as well. Oy house maintenance! 😝

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  9. Reading this post made me go update my percentages. I am sitting at 40.62% in my taxable, 41.6% in tax deferred, and 17.78% in tax free. I have to say that I’m please to see that first percentage is really close to overtaking my 401k in the deferred category.

    I changed my 401k deductions from 15% which maxed me out every year to only 4.5% which is just enough to get my full company match. I take the remaining 10.5% and put it into my taxable brokerage account each month. I’m thinking my brokerage account will overtake the 401k sometime this year. Tack on my next 5 years of continuing this practice until I retire, and I think I will be ok to cover my gap of 53 to 59.5.

    I really liked the pictures as well.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks for sharing your percentages, sounds like you have a really good portfolio balance and know how much money you need for your early retirement gap. And how exciting to have only 5 more years until retirement! Good for you Rex. 🙂

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  10. Ali,
    Just found your blog via link from allstarmoney.com and found this helpful. I have been going through the same process.

    Have you considered the HSA account (triple tax free) to fund your LTC? You get an above the line deduction for current year contributions, all future earnings are tax free, and all withdrawals for med expenses are tax free! The above the line adjustment (up to $$4,600 per person over 55) can also increase your Roth conversion limit.

    By taking your SS at 62, you are reducing your Roth IRA conversions while staying in the 12% bracket (unless you income is low and SS is not considered income). Roth conversions are VALUABLE. No taxes on ALL future earnings.

    Wish I had found you earlier. Your writing is easy to understand and your graphics are great illustrating the concepts.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hey there. Thanks for your comment. And yes that’s exactly right on early Social Security. And yes we are trying every trick we can to essentially increase our Roth conversions and similar tax maneuvers.

      To answer your HSA question, we didn’t save funds in HSA accounts while we were working so there were no HSA’s in our portfolio during our careers. This is another account type that isn’t open to everyone unfortunately. Since we started our new ACA health insurance plan in January of 2021 we did open HSA’s and we’ll max them out each year, which is enough to take the edge off of any medical costs now but not enough to fund our long term savings needs at this point. No need to do anything too heroic on LTC though since we have more than enough and a good plan in place already. We have a post about our new HSA’s and our health care plan from Jan 3 if you want to know more. Best part about our brand new HSA’s was learning we can make QHFD’s to our HSA accounts. That is a very cool tax trick!

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  11. OK, I didn’t read the article, but I’m subscribed to your blog, so I have it in my Email box. I hope you’re going to keep your blog going for a long time. Don’t delete it ;-)… some good FIRE’d people did (of course I don’t blame them doing that).
    When I make up my mind to retire (aka OMY syndrome or overcoming fear), I’ll come back to refresh my memory of all these options.

    I’m glad I discovered your blog because I find quite a few similarities despite the fact that I have a conventional family including two young teens.
    The ages are quite similar and the age difference between the partners isn’t that far off.
    Your expenses sound very similar to ours (ours somewhat lower). Over 8 years of expense tracking we crossed $60k one year due to overpaying for our flight tickets to Europe.
    Of course what’s not clear is how our health insurance situation would change if we both quit working, and we’re a family of 4 instead of 2.
    Oh, yeah, and how can I forget: College education is looming starting in 3 years for #1 and then in 6 for #2:-). Just this week I changed umbrella insurance from $1M to $2M as the #1 child wants to start driving ed. Insurance requires an underwriting procedure (whatever that is) to increase to $3M or $5M. I need to explore if we should go through it and get $3M now or wait a couple of years until our taxable accounts get close to $2M. As far as I understand, house, IRA’s, and 401k’s are protected, but not taxable savings/CD’s, I-bonds, or brokerage accounts.

    Now I just need to figure out how to cure my OMY syndrome.
    BTW, what AA percentages have you been maintaining? I’m curious if we are similar. Last year we changed to 65/35, but I’m OK if it has drifted or is drifting towards 70/30 since then.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Sounds like it would help a lot to start really focusing on that “one more year” syndrome! We totally struggled with that ourselves and it was really hard to break that habit as it was really the fear of not having enough. At the time it seemed like working more was the only solution to battling our fear. But we seriously could have focused much more attention on the fear element and maybe dealt with that more intentionally. Hindsight!

      As for our asset allocation, we retired with our portfolio at 75/25 and we keep moving it tack to 75/25 when we rebalance. That’s just our equity to bond allocation since we still don’t include our home equity in our portfolio. We have talked about changing our allocation to 80/20 but so far we’re sticking with 75/25.

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  12. Hi Ali,
    Thanks for your response!
    Have you or Allison written a post about the ‘fear element’ of reluctance to retire much earlier? If not, do you have any advice you could share or direct/recommend me some book/website on that?

    Here is the thing with me personally… I always find something to anchor to in order to justify my fear or excitement in that particular moment.
    When I read stories of people who’ve retired on much less when we have, their courage inspires me and I feel I should be just fine to retire now too. OTOH, I am even more susceptible to ‘bad’ stories especially where medical issues (and insurance) are involved and also thoughts of gloom and doom coming from the stock market and economy. So, my mood keeps switching like on a roller-coaster and continue padding those accounts. It’s nice to feel the comfort of having a nice portfolio, but then I also think “What owns whom? Do I own the money or does the money own me?!” I’m afraid it’s the latter in my case.

    How did you two work through your fear or what was the catalyst to break free from your OMY syndrome?
    Do you remember the feelings you went through when the money for your living expenses came not from your paycheck but from investments? Do you still feel them occasionally?
    I used to read in the past about people having a difficult time of saying goodbye to their salaries and I thought at the time that it shouldn’t be THAT bad for me. The joke is on me now…

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Sana,

      We haven’t focused a whole post on the fear element exactly but we have talked about it a bit in a few posts. It’s amazing how difficult it is to feel emotionally ready to stop working, walk away from paychecks, and just trust in your investments. But I’ll tell you – even more shocking for us was retiring and then almost immediately having all of that anxiety melt away. We kept talking about how great we were feeling even when the stock market was struggling or whatever else was going on, we didn’t have any fear or money anxiety after we retired. It was great to look around and realize that 3 months later, 6 months later, 1 year later, etc. We both wrote posts about how we we were feeling 1 year after retirement. And we still talk a lot about how intense that fear was before we quit work and how fascinating it was to start taking withdrawals from our portfolio and not be afraid at all anymore.

      For us to let go of our own fear we needed a plan to work on and a schedule to meet. We talked through our emotions and fear a million times. And then we needed a distraction to pull us out of that fear cycle because it’s like falling in a pit of mud. At some point we just needed to get up and get out of it. Our plan was basically to quit, sell the condo, and take a really long trip and that gave us a ton of details to focus on and we were able to commit to a timeline. We had a series of conversations like this with a few others and it does seem like that type of planning and scheduling is a great option for dealing with that kind of fear and figuring out how to change your focus. One couple scheduled a 3 month language learning session to start immediately after retiring which motivated them to set dates and milestones of their own. Another couple made a plan to quit their jobs and immediately leave and take a long road trip to visit family.

      In our case though, that fear went away once we left our jobs and took the retirement plunge. We have a plan and a schedule for when we take withdrawals or rebalance our portfolio and that plan makes us feel organized and unafraid. Every time we check in on our plan or even when we change our plan we get a sense of safety and reassurance from that process. We don’t fret about the stock market ups and downs and we don’t worry about money anymore!

      Also, if you haven’t read the Psychology of Money you should check that out! We have a very short review of that book in our Resources tab under Book Reviews. There is so much emotion tied to money!! We both really enjoyed that book and it might be useful for you to check that out.

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        • Great! We really loved that book so hopefully it will be useful for you as well. It’s eye opening and also very reassuring to explore the intense relationship between money and emotion.

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          • Hi Ali,

            I gotta tell ya…Your recommendation of reading the book rejiggled my memory. I have read articles of Morgan Housel here and there and he’s very good at what he does. So now I reserved his book at my library. I’m #45 in line, so I should get it next month or in June. But it’s not a problem for me! After waiting a couple of months in line, I’m getting a book about how to pay for college which is supposedly insightful and I’m curious to read it.
            Re Morgan Housel, he wrote an article (last year I think) about one experience that shaped him for life. If you never read it, it’s a very sad story, but very moving at the same time and it’s worth reading. I cannot recall the name, but it deals with a snow avalanche. I teared up just to remember it.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Wow that avalanche story – I hadn’t read it before so thanks for the tip. Now I know you are going to love this book and hopefully you’ll get it by May or June at the latest. Let us know what you think!

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  13. I understand the focus for this post is on the value of having a flush brokerage account for early retirement, but honestly, it’s a pretty great starting point for figuring out your own early retirement withdrawal strategy!

    You did a great job of hitting the pros/cons on the different types of accounts and then tying it all together in a consumable way. Neat!

    I popped open our own accounts and eyeballing it we have a fairly equal balance between our two 401(k) accounts and our two brokerage accounts. This wasn’t necessarily an intentional strategy during our saving years, rather, just kind of how it worked out. For the most part, Jenni and I maxed our 401(k)s whenever possible, then Roth IRAs, then HSAs, then put the balance into brokerage accounts.

    But of course, this is what happens with two fairly high incomes (relative to a modest ~40k/year annual spend). I can understand it’s necessary to make a more intentional decision when the range between saving and spending is closer.

    Like you all, our intention is to subsist on our brokerage accounts until reaching age-related limits for 401(k) and IRA/HSAs. Conversion ladders and the 72(t) are our backup plans, but that really shouldn’t come to fruition.

    One point I’d like to add in the positive column for brokerage accounts is just how easy it is to roll over investments to a donor-advised-fund (DAF) to supercharge your giving and take the tax advantages of giving *today*. I know a lot of folks (us included) have a desire to give “in the future” once reaching FI is firmly established. But, when you have lower income in those years, the tax advantages are less valuable when you start giving. If you know you’re going to set aside money to give, later, it might make sense to do that now and reap the tax benefits when you’re in a higher bracket.

    What you do with those savings is up to you, but I like to think of it as a way to give *even more* through the tax savings.

    Cheers!

    Liked by 1 person

    • Thanks for the great comment Chris! Really appreciate your feedback.

      Sounds like you and Jenni have a nice balance in your accounts and your saving strategy came together well. Good for you guys!

      It’s fascinating for us to look back at how our FIRE journey went with all of the successes and challenges we came up with along the way. Now we have all of the wisdom of hindsight and acknowledge where we were truly intentional and where we were just really lucky. That’s a whole other cocktail blending intention and luck!

      And yes DAF’s work really well with brokerage accounts. We aren’t using DAF’s so far since they don’t offer us any tax advantages at this point. Our giving plan involves more individuals and other countries and only about half of our donations go to 501(c)(3) organizations in the USA these days. But anyway DAF’s work great for lots of people and they are really useful accounts.

      Cheers back to ya!

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  14. THIS RIGHT HERE! This is why I love this blog so much – real, digestable FIRE best practices – especially for those of us who do not see real estate, side hustling, or geo-arbitrage in our FIRE plans. Thank you so much for always providing clear, concise, and creative ways to make what can become a “blackhole” of FIRE content online so relevant and tangible for us.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Wow thanks for your comment Christina. I know what you mean about the blackhole. We were really hoping that sharing our stories would be useful for others so thank you for this feedback! 🙌

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  15. Brilliant! This post brings together all of the concepts I’ve read over the years concerning withdrawal strategies from other bloggers. Very easy to read and follow. It also helps to confirm many of my own plans concerning withdrawal strategies, as much of it is similar. I am planning to take SS early because the calculators told me to do so, but your thoughts on how it impacts RMD’s is brilliant. It’s like…. why didn’t I think of that? I may be picking your wonderful brains in the near future.

    Liked by 3 people

    • Hey, thanks for the feedback. We had a great time writing this post. Our draw down strategy evolves along with what we learn, changes in tax codes, and our long term objectives. We would be happy to chat more with you about all of this down the road. Cheers!

      Liked by 1 person

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